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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
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mcvlbound
Senior Member
1508 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2012 : 11:40:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
Wait, we've been at war with terror for 11 years now in the name of preventing every terrorist attack that could ever happen. So, how did this happen?
http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/25/10503201-deadly-car-bomb-hits-outside-yemen-presidential-palace-hours-after-inauguration
How could you ever stop loosely grouped individuals that are willing to blow themselves up from doing that kind of stuff in places where we aren't even wanted? To me it's impossible. Hopefully if we stay focused and vigilant we can keep it from happening in places like our own backyard and maybe places outside of that where we are welcomed and there is cooperation.
We can spend a fortune trying to help an area of the world fight terror and build democracies, and all it takes is our guys burning a few books and peeing on a few dead guys for them to keep on hating us enough to want to kill us.
To me that's enough feedback to let me know that it's a hopeless cause. |
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hhi angler
Senior Member
2131 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 11:58:14 AM
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| We sent a message and should have gotten out the middle east and Muslim radical country's years ago, Nation building is BS when the people don't give a rip about there nation. |
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Fred67
Senior Member
3376 Posts |
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 10:43:43 PM
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| Yeah, it's more than just a hint of sarcasm!!! Remember, we have spent more than 1.5 Trillion dollars to PREVENT stuff like this from happening! We've gone on the "offensive" so that Al Quaida can't coordinate stuff like this any more. |
Edited by - skinneej on 02/26/2012 10:44:31 PM |
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Reelly Old
Senior Member
1338 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 09:39:44 AM
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We've gone on the "offensive" so that Al Quaida can't coordinate stuff like this any more.
More like so they can't coordinate stuff like this here. Sorta like 'saved jobs', somewhat difficult to valuate what didn't happen ...
A Thousand Years And We Still Haven't Learned Christiandom Will Never Tame The Muslim World.
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 10:31:56 AM
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So you are saying that our military offensive in the Middle East only prevents Al Quaida from terrorist attacks on US Soil? So, somehow when we are going door to door, looking for insurgents, we are only targeting the cells that are targetting the USA and we leave Al Quaida alone as long as they are planning on non-US terrorist attacks?
Yeah, that makes sense...
PS That's sarcasm too... Reelly Old, surely you can't believe what you posted... |
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mcvlbound
Senior Member
1508 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 11:48:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
So you are saying that our military offensive in the Middle East only prevents Al Quaida from terrorist attacks on US Soil? So, somehow when we are going door to door, looking for insurgents, we are only targeting the cells that are targetting the USA and we leave Al Quaida alone as long as they are planning on non-US terrorist attacks?
Yeah, that makes sense...
PS That's sarcasm too... Reelly Old, surely you can't believe what you posted...
I never could understand how what terrorists were planning to do 6000 miles away could have any effect if they couldn't somehow go from 6000 miles away to somewhere here with that same plan intact? How would they work that out unless it was a plan to use something readily available here as their weapon....as they did in 911?
I would think that the best way to plan an attack in this country, would be to first be in this country, not in some goat town in Iraq.
Maybe the general idea would come from somewhere in the Middle East, but unless they could swim ashore with bombs strapped to their bodies, the real meat of the plan would have to be developed here. I can't see it happening any other way.
After 9/11 I looked around on my jobsite and realized that a lot of Hispanics had features that resembled Arabs. There was one guy from El Salvador that could have been one of the attackers brothers. At that point I knew that if Bin Laden had any brains he would be finding Arabs that resembled Hispanics and sending them to spanish immersion camps somewhere in Central America or Mexico. Spanish speaking Arabs that could blend in with the hoards of Hispanics crossing the border would be the perfect way to establish sleeper cells in the US. I saw the time right after 9/11 as the perfect time to close our southern borders. It could have been done under the purpose of National Security and if presented with half the zeal and vigor as the case for attacking Saddam, right now we would have very secure southern borders and probably a bunch less illegal Arabs in the US planning who knows what.
http://www.wnd.com/2010/05/156441/
"Also, a jacket found in Jim Hogg County, Texas, was covered in patches from countries where al-Qaida is known to operate. The patches include an Arabic military badge and one that illustrates an airplane flying into a tower. Another one features a depiction of a lions head with wings and a parachute. The Arab insignia reads martyr, way to eternal life or way to immortality."
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saltydog235
Senior Member
9678 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 12:08:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mcvlbound
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
So you are saying that our military offensive in the Middle East only prevents Al Quaida from terrorist attacks on US Soil? So, somehow when we are going door to door, looking for insurgents, we are only targeting the cells that are targetting the USA and we leave Al Quaida alone as long as they are planning on non-US terrorist attacks?
Yeah, that makes sense...
PS That's sarcasm too... Reelly Old, surely you can't believe what you posted...
I never could understand how what terrorists were planning to do 6000 miles away could have any effect if they couldn't somehow go from 6000 miles away to somewhere here with that same plan intact? How would they work that out unless it was a plan to use something readily available here as their weapon....as they did in 911?
I would think that the best way to plan an attack in this country, would be to first be in this country, not in some goat town in Iraq.
Maybe the general idea would come from somewhere in the Middle East, but unless they could swim ashore with bombs strapped to their bodies, the real meat of the plan would have to be developed here. I can't see it happening any other way.
After 9/11 I looked around on my jobsite and realized that a lot of Hispanics had features that resembled Arabs. There was one guy from El Salvador that could have been one of the attackers brothers. At that point I knew that if Bin Laden had any brains he would be finding Arabs that resembled Hispanics and sending them to spanish immersion camps somewhere in Central America or Mexico. Spanish speaking Arabs that could blend in with the hoards of Hispanics crossing the border would be the perfect way to establish sleeper cells in the US. I saw the time right after 9/11 as the perfect time to close our southern borders. It could have been done under the purpose of National Security and if presented with half the zeal and vigor as the case for attacking Saddam, right now we would have very secure southern borders and probably a bunch less illegal Arabs in the US planning who knows what.
http://www.wnd.com/2010/05/156441/
"Also, a jacket found in Jim Hogg County, Texas, was covered in patches from countries where al-Qaida is known to operate. The patches include an Arabic military badge and one that illustrates an airplane flying into a tower. Another one features a depiction of a lions head with wings and a parachute. The Arab insignia reads martyr, way to eternal life or way to immortality."
I knew there was a "Conflict on Man Made Disasters" but a "War On Terror", who knew?
McV, that scenario sounds almost like the plot of the the Tom Clancy book "Against All Enemies" I'm reading now. Fact is when you let a bunch of politicians presecute a war like we have now, you get the screwed up mess we have worldwide. They're more worried about self preservation and their posh lifestyles than winning anything more than an election.
Want to win the war, get the politicians out and turn it over to the generals and soldiers trained to prosecute a war.
Mark
Mako 262 Twin Yammaha F200s
Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal? I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy but they're definitely dirty. But, a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.
"Life's tough......It's even tougher if you're stupid" John Wayne
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 12:23:16 PM
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| It only takes 1 crazy to commit a terrorist attack. It does't necessarily take a huge network of planning and coordination. Look no futher than Timothy McVeigh... |
Edited by - skinneej on 02/27/2012 12:23:36 PM |
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 12:25:41 PM
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Originally posted by saltydog235
Want to win the war, get the politicians out and turn it over to the generals and soldiers trained to prosecute a war.
That's just a handy catch phrase... What does that actually mean? Are you saying that the "War on Terror" can be won if we just let the military run willy nilly? |
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saltydog235
Senior Member
9678 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 1:12:50 PM
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Not at all. But the capacity to wage terrorism could be greatly deminished if the military(ie SF) and clandestine services weren't as hamstrung as they are by answering to a committee of politicians who all have their own personal agenda's getting in the way of sound decision making. There is no winning a war soley based on ideology, at least in the minds of the enemy, not in out lifetime at least. You could also surmise that if the US pulled completely out of this "conflict" and the region that a) the entire region would become so unstable that all out war would erupt. b) US enemies would take it as a sign of defeat and increase attacks against our interests worldwide. c) attacks increase domestically d) traditional enemies will be emboldened and threaten any sense of global stability and world economic markets with special emphasis on oil, that we now have a semblance of. There's no pat or simple answer to the problem as a whole but politicians involved in battlefeild and tactical decisions has been and will always be a farce where waging war is concerned.
Mark
Mako 262 Twin Yammaha F200s
Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal? I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy but they're definitely dirty. But, a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.
"Life's tough......It's even tougher if you're stupid" John Wayne
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mcvlbound
Senior Member
1508 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 1:21:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
It only takes 1 crazy to commit a terrorist attack. It does't necessarily take a huge network of planning and coordination. Look no futher than Timothy McVeigh...
Terrorists are usually very low tech. IED's are about as technical as they get. There is nothing high tech about strapping a load of bombs to your body and setting them off in a crowd. Flying a passenger jet into a skyscraper is a low tech, low budget weapon, regardless of the devastating consequences. In my opinion you don't fight terrorism with conventional military tactics. Homeland Security, along with a robust Worldwide Intelligence System, highly equipped razor sharp Special Ops, and lots of Missile Armed Un-manned Drones is where I'd put my money.
I can't think of anything more terrorizing to a terrorist then the thought that at any given moment, if they venture outside of their cave or spider hole, death might rain down on them from nowhere in sight. |
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 1:53:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by saltydog235
Not at all. But the capacity to wage terrorism could be greatly deminished if the military(ie SF) and clandestine services weren't as hamstrung as they are by answering to a committee of politicians who all have their own personal agenda's getting in the way of sound decision making.
You act like there is a rash of terrorism on a daily basis. It's just a handful of isolated incidents here and there... Are we going to reduce terrorism attacks from 1 per year to 0.5 per year? Keep in mind, there lacks the "problem" for your solution...
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There is no winning a war soley based on ideology, at least in the minds of the enemy, not in out lifetime at least.
Which "war" are you referring to? Conflict in the ME has been on going for thousands of years...
quote:
You could also surmise that if the US pulled completely out of this "conflict" and the region that a) the entire region would become so unstable that all out war would erupt.
There are a couple problems with this assumption... The first one is that the USA has not always been around. Conflict in the middle east is more than 10 times older than our nation, so who was the "peacekeeper" before us? Secondly, even if we did "pull out", if things got hairy, we could get back in there tomorrow if needed when there is a REAL war going on...
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b) US enemies would take it as a sign of defeat and increase attacks against our interests worldwide.
Typical federal government propaganda. Did that happen when we pulled out of Vietnam? People know how powerful the USA is and that we are the dominant military force in the world. Also, we killed both Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, so we have a REASON to exit without looking like "losers".
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c) attacks increase domestically
Simply not true. They aren't launching rockets or planes from foreign soil. As mcvlbound already stated, those happen from cells here in the USA.
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d) traditional enemies will be emboldened and threaten any sense of global stability and world economic markets with special emphasis on oil, that we now have a semblance of.
Again, that's just another bad theory. There is no evidence that this could happen. You could also argue the case that if we pulled out that some of the crazies would't hate us so much and be less tempted to actually become martyr's. Kind of an "if you don't attack us anymore we won't have a reason to invade you anymore" truce...
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 1:56:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mcvlbound
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
It only takes 1 crazy to commit a terrorist attack. It does't necessarily take a huge network of planning and coordination. Look no futher than Timothy McVeigh...
Homeland Security, along with a robust Worldwide Intelligence System,
Exactly which freedoms are you willing to give up for such surveillance that catches all terrorist attacks before they happen? You can't watch every person in the world at once. That's a pipe dream. And if we could, is that what you want? Do you really want the US federal government watching your every move 24x7? Doesn't that smell a little "big brother"? |
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Reelly Old
Senior Member
1338 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 2:01:31 PM
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So you are saying that our military offensive in the Middle East only prevents Al Quaida from terrorist attacks on US Soil?
Nope, didn't say that at all. What I said we more likely went on a military offensive so Al Queida would have more difficulty coordinating offensives in this country. If we did it to disrupt Al Queida moves over there, daily news would seem to indicate very questionable results. But like I also said, it's hard to quantify what didn't happen (there or here) beyond just understanding you cannot stop people who are willing to die for what they believe. Short of killing them all, that is, which probably can't be done, either ...
The Problem Is One Man's Terrorist Is Another's Patriot.
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 3:43:15 PM
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Really Old, sure, it's hard to quantify what didn't happen, but check out this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents
I'm not sure if this is a comprehensive list or not, but it lists terrorist attacks all over the globe. Near the bottom, you can click on individual years. Click on the last 4-5 years in the 20th cetury (1995-2000) (before we declared a "War on Terror") and then click on the last 5 years (2011-2005). Honestly, I didn't look at all of them, but a few things that I noticed while skimming over them were:
1) If anything, global terrorist incidents have gone UP
2) Many of the US incidents (successful and foiled) were not Islamic Radicalists, but a lot of them were US citizens
3) Many of them were foiled by intelligence (not by proactive wars in the middle east)
If it is true that terrorists incidents have actually gone UP worldwide, what does this mean about our effectiveness in preventing these things proactively through military action? I can definitely see the argument FOR intelligence, but I'm speaking military occupation of foreign lands (namely Iraq and Afghanistan here)...
Anyway, makes you think if we have spent our 1.5 TRILLION in the right place... |
Edited by - skinneej on 02/27/2012 3:46:02 PM |
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saltydog235
Senior Member
9678 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 4:20:20 PM
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SJ, your hypothesis can be viewed the same way as you refute mine. Just a handful of attacks here and there, its only people, as long as it doesn't affect me, or I don't know them and even then its as random as getting struck by lightning. Yeah, they've been fighting in the ME for a long time, in fact wasn't there a couple hundred years between the first and second Crusades or something of that nature? So what is this, the third installment or is it a totally different animal, what conflict are you refering to? Depending on what way you twist and turn it as to your views. There's never been a peacekeeper in the area and the only role the US plays is a protector from those who can't protect themselves mainly because we have interest in the oil, nothing more than that. Pulling out and letting the region go into all out war would mean major disruption to the national drug, oil. And conflict in that area is far older than 10X our nations age just FYI, they just have a lot of the one thing we really like and need. You honestly think that those cave dwelling, ass backward people don't think the US pulling out is a sign of defeat? Seriously, that's what you want to go with? That's the simple way they see it, not fed goobermint propaganda.
Also, you don't think that Russia and China are looking to take full advantage and working hard to make the US an even player or non issue on the global power stage?
We could pull out tommorrow, send in a bunch of hippies projecting peace and love, light a bonfire and sing Kumbayah, and make nice on everything we do, the fact is those people would still hate us and do everything in their power to blow people and other schitt up, they'd still persecute Christians, burn American flags, they'd still hate all jews and probably use the bonfire to roast the hippies. You can't make peace with people that don't want it and if you have to make war, then the last people I would want dictating battlefeild decisions are people like I'llblameya, Biden, Pelosi, Reid or any other myriad of other self serving politicians in DC.
You reference Vietnam, we didn't win in VIetnam despite our supposed might. Politicians saw to that by their win the hearts and minds philosophy. I cannot remember where I read it but it goes something like this, "Win the hearts and minds of your enemy through the total defeat of that enemy, not by percieved mercy because only a truely defeated enemy is open to change."
Mark
Mako 262 Twin Yammaha F200s
Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal? I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy but they're definitely dirty. But, a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.
"Life's tough......It's even tougher if you're stupid" John Wayne
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gotchacovered
Prolific Poster
18081 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 4:48:27 PM
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This is what Islamic leaders do when you don't contain them with a superior military force--http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Age-of-caliphs.png/800px-Age-of-caliphs.png
Islam's goal is world domination through force. That map is the land area that Islam dominated in times past under the "caliphate" directive of it's founder, Mohammed. This is what Islamic groups and leaders like Ahmajinibdoubadoubs want to restore and expand--and if you think they only want the Middle-East, think again.
Gotcha Covered,
Lee Strickland
Strickland Marine Insurance Agency, Inc.
https://stricklandmarine.net
843-795-1000 / 800-446-1862 |
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sshaarda
Senior Member
3340 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 4:55:14 PM
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Why don't we all just do this and pretend that there aren't any bad guys around the world that want to do us harm.
My attempt at sarcasm 
"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel ." Benjamin Netanyahu
Ecclesiastes 10:2
GW 205
F200 Yam |
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Fred67
Senior Member
3376 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 4:59:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by saltydog235
Want to win the war, get the politicians out and turn it over to the generals and soldiers trained to prosecute a war.
That's just a handy catch phrase... What does that actually mean? Are you saying that the "War on Terror" can be won if we just let the military run willy nilly?
Skinny, I gotta speak up on this one. No not willy nilly, but balls to the wall total annihilation of the enemy with civilian casualties. The population will be so scared they will take care of the terrorists. War is hell.
< Evil is simply the absence of God > |
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soup
Senior Member
2718 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 5:35:16 PM
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There is a war that will be fought someday. It may not start over a terrorism attack but probably will start over a massive invasion of one group's culture by another due to both the invasive attitude of one group and demographics favoring that group. Each side will gain allies because of cultural and economic ties.
Such wars have been fought twice somewhere around a 1000yrs ago. Each was cruel, gross, deadly. One side finally won and the other side stayed in submission for all this time. Now they have started again.
Fight it now while the "gettin is good."
"Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order"--Samuel Huntington. |
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 5:43:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fred67
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by saltydog235
Want to win the war, get the politicians out and turn it over to the generals and soldiers trained to prosecute a war.
That's just a handy catch phrase... What does that actually mean? Are you saying that the "War on Terror" can be won if we just let the military run willy nilly?
Skinny, I gotta speak up on this one. No not willy nilly, but balls to the wall total annihilation of the enemy with civilian casualties. The population will be so scared they will take care of the terrorists. War is hell.
< Evil is simply the absence of God >
What enemy? Are you referring to total genocide of Muslims? |
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 5:45:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sshaarda
Why don't we all just do this and pretend that there aren't any bad guys around the world that want to do us harm.
My attempt at sarcasm
"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel ." Benjamin Netanyahu
Ecclesiastes 10:2
GW 205
F200 Yam
Who said that there aren't any bad guys? This is the picture of people who thinking spending 1.5 TRILLION dollars to wipe out terrorism when their efforts have had very little, if any effect, while letting our economy go down the tubes as we default on Chinese debt, is a great idea... |
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 5:48:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gotchacovered
This is what Islamic leaders do when you don't contain them with a superior military force--http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Age-of-caliphs.png/800px-Age-of-caliphs.png
Islam's goal is world domination through force. That map is the land area that Islam dominated in times past under the "caliphate" directive of it's founder, Mohammed. This is what Islamic groups and leaders like Ahmajinibdoubadoubs want to restore and expand--and if you think they only want the Middle-East, think again.
Gotcha Covered,
Lee Strickland
Strickland Marine Insurance Agency, Inc.
https://stricklandmarine.net
843-795-1000 / 800-446-1862
This topic isn't really about Iran and it's desire to possess nuclear weapons. This is about the "War on Terror"... And the thought that we can rid the world of terrorists by occupying Iraq and Afghanistan. |
Edited by - skinneej on 02/27/2012 5:49:24 PM |
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mcvlbound
Senior Member
1508 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 5:50:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fred67
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by saltydog235
Want to win the war, get the politicians out and turn it over to the generals and soldiers trained to prosecute a war.
That's just a handy catch phrase... What does that actually mean? Are you saying that the "War on Terror" can be won if we just let the military run willy nilly?
Skinny, I gotta speak up on this one. No not willy nilly, but balls to the wall total annihilation of the enemy with civilian casualties. The population will be so scared they will take care of the terrorists. War is hell.
< Evil is simply the absence of God >
I agree with you Fred, but that's not going to happen. A good example to let you know that it won't happen is that you know and I know that right now at this very moment they should be having a huge book burning over there in Afghanistan. Anybody that interferes should be shot dead and then pissed on.
It'll never happen though....Instead it's...our troops were wrong, it was a mistake, we're sorry.....how can we make it up to you.
If we're not going to allow our soldiers to be feared, why do we have them there? |
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War on Terror
Anytime we flex our muscle in another countries back yard we'll have terrorists. We don't even bring up England and Ireland anymore. And those are "civilized" countries that bred terrorists.