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Bonzo72
Prolific Poster
11070 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2012 : 2:19:25 PM
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First of all this is tragic for the family of Quentin Miller...this will likely change how many restaurants and bars treat their staff when it comes to "privileges" like drinking after hours and often for free...
http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2012/mar/01/husk-sued-over-fatal-crash/
this coming on the heels of many accolades for the restaurant...sad story all the way around...but a preventable one, and that is just a shame...
The Morris Island Lighthouse www.savethelight.org |
Edited by - Bonzo72 on 03/01/2012 4:22:33 PM |
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mhebbard
Senior Member
414 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 2:52:12 PM
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ehhh im not sure, i kind of lean towards the "personal responsibility" thing on these. Husk will very likely lose the case, though, and everyone will be forced to pay for the bad behavior of one idiot with no regard for his or any other driver's safety.
Why is it that the drunk drivers always seem to come out without a scratch in these things? |
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RWL
Senior Member
1735 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 3:40:01 PM
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This country better get back to thinking with logic instead looking for the money or we are going to.......... wait, the country is already on its way to a slow death!!
There is ONE person responsible here, that is the guy that chose to drink and drive. When Husk looses this, you can say goobye to ANYONE having a party where alcohol is provided too!!!! It wouldn't be worth the risk!
Bonzo, when you said a "preventable one", what did you mean? The person who could have prevented it is the drunk driver, by not driving drunk. It is not anyone else's responsibility IMO. |
Edited by - RWL on 03/01/2012 3:43:06 PM |
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Bonzo72
Prolific Poster
11070 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 4:21:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RWL
Bonzo, when you said a "preventable one", what did you mean? The person who could have prevented it is the drunk driver, by not driving drunk. It is not anyone else's responsibility IMO.
I agree with you 100%...it is the responsibility of the individual, not the restaurant or bar where he was drinking...that is the bottom line...BUT isn't there also a little moral responsibility that should be exercised by those who provide a potential avenue for this to happen?
**I am changing the title of this thread because after second thought I don't want anybody thinking I am in favor or suing the restaurant or "owning" it because of this tragedy...
The Morris Island Lighthouse www.savethelight.org |
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jipride
Senior Member
705 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 6:00:31 PM
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Both the drivers were drunk, and were drinking together at named restaurant as I understand it. I think the restaurant did show negligence in allowing these guys to sit and drink after hours. Furthermore the accident happened at 4 AM, 2 hours after one can legally be served in this city. No restaurant can stop people from being stupid. But they don't have to help. If they made those guys leave when they were done with there job, they wouldn't be in any way liable. Basically, they screwed up, and one persons life was lost with many more lives severally damaged. I don't blame the father for suing.
Karma is 360 degrees |
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DFreedom
Senior Member
6596 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 08:20:37 AM
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| This is truly a tragedy that was entirely preventable. No lawsuit will change what has happened or repair the damage that was done. The fact is, regardless of where he got drunk, he did so and then willingly got behind the wheel of a car. When will people learn that stupid behavior often brings about tragic results? My heart goes out to the family of Mr. Miller. |
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RWL
Senior Member
1735 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 09:01:55 AM
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Bonzo, I didn't think that is how you thought. I was just curious as to what you meant. We were on the same page. jpride, if what you say is true then the news once again fails to report everything to paint a picture of what they WANT us to know to persuade us to a way of thinking. If it was a patron of the restaurant, I would buy your argument, but didn't he work there as an manager? If so, it is not uncommon for staff to sit around and have a few. Not to get into a long discussion of what is right and wrong about serving alcohol, I am merely pointing out that we need to start putting teh blame where is really lies and that is with the person/s making the bad decisions. If we continue to follow trails to the money to make someone "PAY" for this happening, this country will fail. If they forced him to drink that would be a different story, but I am sure they didn't. What to stop someone from sueing if you have a get together and you provide the alcohol and your guest leaves after having shots that you didn't know he had and kills someone. You agree that they can sue you for providing the alcohol and ruin your life and take your house and such? That is where this line of accusation is going.
Bonzo, I think we do the best we can to keep people from getting behind the wheel. If it is one of my friends I know I will physically try to stop them, but a stranger, I don't know. If he is blatantly drunk I would try to stall him and call a cab, but the problem is alot of times this happens the drunk really doesn't seem drunk, but would fail a breathalizer test. Every situation is different and I think someone should try to prevent someone from driving drunk, but I don't think it is their RESPONSILBILTY! Maybe we should make the punishment greater for drink driving. |
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Mandopickr
Senior Member
378 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 10:16:28 AM
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Some 25 years ago, when I first left the lab bench and went into sales, we had a situation in Greenville where a guy left an open tab at a restaurant for some of his business associates. One of those associates on her way home crossed into the oncoming lanes on 385 and killed the other driver.
The restaurant, the guy with the tab, and the company the guy worked for (it was their credit card) were all sued (As I remember, they settled out of court).
After that, when entertaining customers, I would only buy two drinks. I took a lot of abuse for that approach, and I'm sure I lost customers. So I changed the policy to I'll feed you, I'll entertain you at ball games, golf, but I won't buy alcohol. That approach worked better.
It wasn't just the liability, though I felt I some responsibility to my wife to not expose ourselves to a large lawsuit. It was also the thought that I might contribute to the death of a friend and client, or cause the death or injury to someone I don't know.
During the last 25 years, I've see this happen to other salesmen and companies. Don't think that its just the restaurant that can be sued. And even a successful defense can be debilitating financially. |
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jipride
Senior Member
705 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 11:03:43 AM
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The reality is that the precedent for this was set long ago. We are not talking about something new. Anyone can be sued for over serving another person. Many bars and restaurants have been sued for this same thing. As Mandopickr described 25 years ago people were suing for this same type of stuff. Part of running a restaurant or bar is knowing that you are open to these types of suits. I am not arguing that every time someone gets hurt the damaged should go sue crazy. I am arguing that if you are going to serve alcohol, you have to protect yourself from that possibility. Furthermore, the fact that these were employees and not patrons makes this even more preventable IMO. Whats truly sad is, this is not a unique story.
Karma is 360 degrees |
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hhi angler
Senior Member
2125 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 12:28:14 PM
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| Dram Shop statue. |
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Hurricane701
Senior Member
2105 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 07:07:29 AM
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Vicarious liability ..... CYA all the time
Bragging may not bring happiness,
but no man having caught a large fish,
goes home through the alley.
-Anonymous |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6123 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 08:53:59 AM
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PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
This country forgot what that means.
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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Wolakrab
Senior Member
1654 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 3:21:21 PM
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Where's the personal responsibility of those who knew he had too much to drink, and yet still let him drive? I guess it's the victim's fault because he didn't exercise personal responsibility in working a job that put him on the road during a time that it's known many drunks are out.
I'll wager to say anyone who mentioned personal responsibility hasn't lost a family member in an accident caused by a drunk driver.
Face it...precedent for a lawsuit like this was set decades ago. Nothing new here.
"Never argue with an idiot....he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6123 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 3:53:55 PM
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So you don't blame THE PERSON responsible for this. You want to blame everyone else.
Do you blame the car dealership too? How about the company making the alcohol.
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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Bad Habit
Senior Member
2025 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 4:22:32 PM
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true story from a bar owner - me.
i had 2 customers come into my bar early in the evening, they drank 2 beers and shot a game of pool, paid cash and left to go bar hopping.
numerous hours and several bars later they were in an accident where somewhere was killed.
family of the deceased went after EVERY place they had drank the entire evening for the limits of their insurance, mine was 1 million back then.
all the insurance companies settled.
how was i responsible for the death?
that is typical of these cases, the slimey lawyer sues as many as possible in order to line his pockets with 40% of the settlement.
OUR GOVERNMENT HAS BECOME THE ENEMY OF FREEDOM. |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6123 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 4:39:13 PM
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BH, That is exactly what I'm talking about. The death was 1 persons fault PERIOD.
Its not the every bar owner, or the shoe company they were wearing when they bar hopped. Or the car maker, gas maker..........
1 person
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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DolphinD
Senior Member
2286 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 6:03:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jipride
Both the drivers were drunk, and were drinking together at named restaurant as I understand it.
Is this the case? That put a whole new spin on it. From day one, I wondered if these guys were racing or something over the bridge, At 4am, there are usually NO cars on the bridge, not hard to avoid the random vehicle that might be out there.
Another thought, everyone is saying the restaurant should have some responsibility, but I don't think so. Burnell was listed as a manager, did he close the place that night? I don't know many restaurant owners that stick around until after closing when they have a capable manager on hand. So I guess my point is, I bet this guy closed the restaurant down after drinking with a few fellow employees (possibly the victim??), locked the doors, and went home. Along the way, might have tried to race his Audi against the other guys mustang, late at night, with no one else in sight, loses control (or maybe the victim lost control), they crash, and a defect in the Mustang caused it to burst into flames, killing the driver.
Where did the restaurant do anything wrong again? One employee (maybe two?) might have done something wrong, but the organization probably had no idea what type of BAC their employees had when they left the place.
Just my take.
Annoy a Liberal, Work Hard and Be Happy!
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RWL
Senior Member
1735 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2012 : 09:30:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolakrab
Where's the personal responsibility of those who knew he had too much to drink, and yet still let him drive? I guess it's the victim's fault because he didn't exercise personal responsibility in working a job that put him on the road during a time that it's known many drunks are out.
I'll wager to say anyone who mentioned personal responsibility hasn't lost a family member in an accident caused by a drunk driver.
Face it...precedent for a lawsuit like this was set decades ago. Nothing new here.
"Never argue with an idiot....he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
wolkrab, you are doing what every bleeding heart and slime bag attorney is doing in these cases, pulkling teh heart strings of people to make them balme the big bad restaurant because they sell alcohol and could have NOT sold it to them to prevent this!!!
What does having a family member lost to a drunk driver have to do with who is at fault for the accident except that a family would be mad and hurt and want, what they think at the time, is justice! That kind of justice is not right most of the time. They just want someone to pay because they have just paid a dear price. That doens't make it right. the fact that there have been these lawsuits for 25 years does not make it the right thing to do either. It just means that people aren't speaking up about it because it was not affecting them enough. That time is coming! The silent majority will start speaking on alot of issues if this country continues on its path.
One more thing, lets not confuse personal responsibilty with the law either. As Bonzo and I already said, we think people should have a moral responsibilty to help out people that you think are too drunk to drive and do whatever YOU feel you need to do it, but there is no LAW that says you have to. Everyone has a personal responsibilty not to drink too much and then drive. the difference is there is a LAW against it so that the person who does't take that responsisbilty has to pay a consequence for it. The problem with taking it past the individual that made the bad decision is it opens up too much grey area for LAWSUITS and people that had nothing to do with it get sued and have to pay a consequence for someone else's actions. What if you tried to help a drunk out that you didn't know leaving a bar and he started cussing you and wanted to fight you for intervening in his life and you decide you don't want to fight the guy and go on your way. the drunk then kills someone on his way home and it is found out that you tried to help him but quit becasue of the confrontation. Do you want to be sued becasue you didn't take drastic measures to stop this guy? Is teh death your fault because of this or is it totally his fault for driving drunk!!! If you are family member of the deceased, does that change everything in your eyes and put blame of the guy that "tried" to help?
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jipride
Senior Member
705 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2012 : 11:03:08 AM
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I do sell alcohol to the public. I am not the last one at the restaurant every night because I have competent, trustworthy managers who close. If I found out they were drinking at work, they would be fired. That is my personal responsibility. This is not a case of a random customer being over served. These were employees allowed to get drunk at work. Big difference. Restaurant does have some liability.
Karma is 360 degrees |
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stonoman
Prolific Poster
12270 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2012 : 8:37:48 PM
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Any Restaurant( Business) that allows its employees to stay after hours and drink free is crazy.Poor and sloppy management by manager and owner caused this problem.
Stonoman |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6123 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2012 : 9:20:05 PM
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Stono, I agree it is poor/sloppy management, but they did not cause this. No one forced them to drink. If I give you a beer, it is still up to you to drink it or not.
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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Mandopickr
Senior Member
378 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2012 : 11:55:27 PM
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RWL, so some guy could be falling down drunk, the restaurant can serve him, (after all why miss the opportunity to make a few extra dollars off a drunk), and ya'll think that's okay since it's not the restaurant's responsibility, legal or otherwise.
I'm old enough to remember that world. Be sure you want to go back there, because it wasn't pretty.
So for you there is no line, no instance at which the server has some responsibility?
BTW, I'm not implying that this was the case here. No do I know enough about these circumstances to pass judgement either way. Nor do I deny the responsibility and liability of the driver.
My point is that you must have enough sense to protect yourself if you're in this business. Many restaurants and bars have found ways to do just that. Or you can ignore the potential liability, and argue your point all the way to the poor house.
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RWL
Senior Member
1735 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2012 : 07:16:32 AM
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| This is another reason I hate discussuions on the internet. Mandopickr, please show me where I said it was OK for an establishment to SERVE a drink to a stumbling drunk guy. Can ANYBODY use plain ole common sense anymore when discussing a subject? Go back and read Bad Habits post. While I do not beleive that Bad Habit should have been look into as being negligent in serving the guy drinks as it was his first two, I do beleive the last bar has some responsibilty not to serve the guy if he comes in stumbling drunk. Nobody is arguing the clear cut cases as a guy obviously drunk, THAT IS COMMON SENSE, but what about the guy/woman that can hold their liquor and have say 5-6 drinks but noone can tell. They walk, talk and act just fine, but would blow just over the legal limit. Is it fair to the bar or restaurant owner to be responsible for their decision to drink 5-6 drinks? This is the grey area I am talking about. Where does it begin and end? If you answered yes to that question, then you would be all for a breathalizer at the bar that EVERYONE has to blow into and if you blow over the limit you don't get served because you MIGHT drive. Lets not forget either that the bar or restaurant IS in the BUSINESS to MAKE a FEW EXTRA DOLLARS as you put it. Why is it so hard to put the responsilbilty on the person drinking? I feel the same about smoking too by the way (never smoked). Especially now, there is enough ads and information about the harms of drinking and driving and smoking that if you chose to do so, well, they call that Darwinism. The weak and less inteligent will not survive! Oh but what about the innocent people killed by these peopel that chose to do it anyway? Well, I beleive that if you kill someone while drunk driving you go to prison for a long time (I would be all for FOREVER). I would even be for a lengthy jail sentence for your second DUI offense. if you didn't learn the first time, you have become a menace to society and deserve it, but that is just me. This is a touchy subject I know and there are many, many variations and situations we can talk about till the end of time. IMO, if we go back to putting the total responsibilty on the people themselves with very severe penalties for breaking the rules we deem as a society to be very inportant like DUI, it will go down drastically. Not instantly, but people will learn not to F up! I know many of us here have been behind the wheel when we shouldn't have and by the grace of God made it home or where were going without incedent, but if there was a mandotory 1 year prison sentence for your 1st DUI and a 10 year for 2nd and 20 year 3rd scenerio do you think you would have thought differently and drank more responsible? I know some will say that won't stop everybody! It not menat to. There will always be crazy, stupid peopel out there, but that is what the penalty needs to be very severe. There is the death penalty for killing, but people still kill! There are alot of casual drinkers out there, me included, that have and still get into cars while "buzzed". If there were stiffer penalties for DUI's alot of that would stop. I am curious to see people's opinion and remeber all this is, is our opinions!! |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6123 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2012 : 07:52:25 AM
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1 issue here is that everyone is assuming that just because you are drinking in a bar that you are going to drive. What is I take a taxi or have a friend drive. How does the bar staff know if I am driving? is it really their responsibly?
Sir, you have already had 3 beers, I think you are to drunk to drive.
Oh, no worries I'm taking a taxi home.
OK, good. Let me get you that 4th beer
Then I go outside and get in my car........................
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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RWL
Senior Member
1735 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2012 : 11:21:34 AM
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| Exactly FISH8! |
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Mandopickr
Senior Member
378 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2012 : 7:02:28 PM
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My post was based on your comment :"There is ONE person responsible here, that is the guy that chose to drink and drive." So after reading your last post it looks like we are more in agreement. The servers must use some degree of caution as well. There is a grey area, and I'd avoid it at all costs. But I don't think 5-6 drinks is a grey area.
If I'm the server in FISH8's example, I don't serve the drink. The liability is too great. What is the $3 you'll make on the beer compared to the potential financial loss.
I'm not trying to deny the drinkers responsibility. Nor do I think others are trying to on this thread. I do consider the restaurants and bars being another victim here. BUT they do have some control over not being a victim. I can't remember a case affecting a server where the drinker was marginal, like .09. But I also think that Burnell's 0.24 is pretty drunk on anyone's scale. It's like a recent case in FL where the drunk driver had 20 Jack Daniels.
There are steps that servers can take. Your breathalyser is one example. Will it cost them some dollars. Not compared to one lawsuit.
I saw something interesting last week, though. An establishment had designated drivers sign up, and included the names of the friends they would be driving for. More importantly, it would be in writing. I could see that as being a way to minimize a bar's culpability.
Finally, one last way to look at this, is that Husk, if and when he allowed unfettered access to free drinks put his business' wellbeing in the hands of a drunk, and that drunk's decision to drive. Above and beyond all the tragedy in this case, that's not very smart.
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lawsuit against Husk in DUI death
