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Fishb8
Senior Member
6164 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2012 : 10:04:16 PM
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Is the individual mandate constitutional?
I'm not asking about the health care law. All I want is an educated discussion on whether the government can make you buy something because you are a US citizen.
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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bgf
Senior Member
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 06:10:29 AM
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| You have car insurance, right? However, I do not think it is the same.... |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6164 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 06:49:55 AM
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I do not have to buy car insurance UNLESS I want to drive the car. I make the decision to buy a car and drive it, thus I then and only then do I have to buy insurance.
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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sternline
Senior Member
1159 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 07:10:18 AM
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FEMA Flood Insurance?
I live in a marginal flood zone and did not want to buy a policy; however, my bank told me they would revoke my home equity line unless I did.
Is this a back door way of coercing folks who live in flood zones to purchase a gov. contract?
"Watch what we do,not what we say." John Mitchell
Sea Hunt Triton 202
Yammy 150
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Edited by - sternline on 03/27/2012 07:12:34 AM |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6164 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 07:21:21 AM
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"my bank told me"
Enough said. This is not the Government, but your bank. And it is your decision to own a home in a flood zone.
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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sternline
Senior Member
1159 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 07:37:19 AM
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Yep-that makes sense in my case; however, isn't it true that folks who live in more dangerous flood zones must buy the insurance?
How about folks with Federally issued mortgages who live in flood zones? Do they have an option?
"Watch what we do,not what we say." John Mitchell
Sea Hunt Triton 202
Yammy 150
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Edited by - sternline on 03/27/2012 08:02:09 AM |
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gotchacovered
Prolific Poster
18364 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 08:04:43 AM
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Car and flood insurance are not compulsory unless you use them in conjunction with a public resource. Car insurance is compulsory if you use it on a public road, but not if you use it solely on your property. Flood insurance is compulsory if you have a federally-backed mortgauge, but if you pay cash, the choice is yours. We are not forced by government to borrow money or use the public roads, so we are not forced to buy the insurance. In addition to the government regulations, banks can require all sorts of things as a condition for lending you money because it's a contract between you and them. They might also require that you have a certain financial profile, for example, before they lend you a certain amount of money. That is not goverment force. That is business. No one is forcing the relationship. It's a free-will, take-it-or-leave-it situation.
Gotcha Covered,
Lee Strickland
Strickland Marine Insurance Agency, Inc.
https://stricklandmarine.net
843-795-1000 / 800-446-1862 |
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DFreedom
Senior Member
6722 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 08:12:54 AM
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| The government can argue that since they rely on you for taxes to fund all of the govt. B.S., they need you to be in the best shape possible so you can continue to work and contribute to the tax base. See, they are just trying to protect their source of money. It is liek insurance for them. |
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Easy
Senior Member
2915 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 08:41:49 AM
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| What are they going to do if enough people just don't pay? Raise the rates on rich people? Or, are they going to put you in jail? They don't have enough prisons! What about all the exempt classes of people? Congress for one! Debtors prisons would be the answer! I have VA coverage! Is the government going to make me buy other insurance, because that isn't good enought? Or am I another, Exempt class? |
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sternline
Senior Member
1159 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 09:02:32 AM
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Easy-Just ran across this article-http://spectator.org/archives/2012/03/27/obamas-broken-promise-to-wound. Don't know how or if this will effect you and other ex-military. You may be forced to buy?
What a great leader HRH Bummer is turning out to be!
"Watch what we do,not what we say." John Mitchell
Sea Hunt Triton 202
Yammy 150
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Edited by - sternline on 03/27/2012 09:05:39 AM |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6164 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 09:05:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fishb8
Is the individual mandate constitutional?
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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saltydog235
Senior Member
9739 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 09:31:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fishb8
quote:
Originally posted by Fishb8
Is the individual mandate constitutional?
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them.
No.
Mark
Mako 262 Twin Yammaha F200s
Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal? I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy but they're definitely dirty. But, a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.
"Life's tough......It's even tougher if you're stupid" John Wayne
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sternline
Senior Member
1159 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 09:40:26 AM
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I do not believe that it is constitutional; however, that's just a visceral reaction.
Looks to me like I will find out soon enough if SCOTUS agrees with me or not for good and valid legal reasons.
"Watch what we do,not what we say." John Mitchell
Sea Hunt Triton 202
Yammy 150
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Edited by - sternline on 03/27/2012 11:25:18 AM |
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Easy
Senior Member
2915 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 10:18:02 AM
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I took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution not to see it corrupted to fit ones idelogies! NO it is not constitutional!
Thanks Sternline! Somethng the government promised me and the Skinny Socialist is trying renig on! Can't help but wonder, if this applies to congress's care, at Walter Reed? |
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hhi angler
Senior Member
2157 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 10:32:23 AM
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| The problem is the US Congress making a mandate to purchase a product. This all goes back to the great socialist FDR who shoved all types of federal mandates upon the citizens starting in 1937 and the Supremes have been saying Amen to similar mandates ever since. |
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sternline
Senior Member
1159 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 11:01:34 AM
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Easy-Why ask when you know the answer?  
Be a cold day in H+ll before those bums exempt themselves from any goodies.
"Watch what we do,not what we say." John Mitchell
Sea Hunt Triton 202
Yammy 150
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soup
Senior Member
2739 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 2:12:48 PM
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Audio tapes from today indicate Kennedy was tough on the government but still somewhat amenable. If he decides to uphold the mandate then he will try to construct a principle limiting mandates to this law. Some speculate that if Kennedy does then Roberts will join him in order to construct a more workable limiting principle.
Expect either a 5-4 against or a 5-4 (or 6-3) for. |
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soup
Senior Member
2739 Posts |
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on a fishin mission
Senior Member
1430 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 2:23:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fishb8
Is the individual mandate constitutional?
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them.
No
My favorite quote came from Justice Scalia "the so-called "individual mandate" at the heart of the lawmight mean that "therefore you (the government) can make people buy broccoli."
"Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so." Thomas Jefferson |
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SirSpear
Senior Member
899 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 10:18:11 PM
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The individual mandate is constitutional under the Taxing and Spending Clause.
Keep in mind the mandate doesn't actually make you do anything. You won't go to jail if you don't get health insurance -- there is a just a financial penalty if you have the means to get insurance and choose not to. On an unrelated note, I have no idea why you guys hate this logic -- people use medical services when they need them and then just don't pay if they don't have insurance, so don't let people take advantage of the system that way. But I digress.
Of all the taxes contemplated by the original constitution, a direct tax was clearly allowed.
So frame the question differently: Say Congress passed a direct tax of $600. Then Congress gave a $600 tax credit to anyone who had health insurance throughout the year. Both of these acts are obviously constitutional.
This isn't really a mandate. It's just an acknowledgement that EVERYBODY gets access to expensive medical care, so if you don't act responsibly and acquire insurance for yourself then you'll be taxed.
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Mixed Nutz
Senior Member
3527 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 10:47:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fishb8
Is the individual mandate constitutional?
I'm not asking about the health care law. All I want is an educated discussion on whether the government can make you buy something because you are a US citizen.
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them.
Well...Let's see, How about a Fishing License. Maybe A Hunting License. Then Maybe A Marriage License? And a Drivers License no doubt!! A Migratory Waterfowl Permit, A Salt Water License, A Big Game Permit, A Shrimp Tag for poles? Seining Permit, Crab Pot License, Trot Line Permits......Need I say More???
...Politicians aren't the "Oldest Profession", but the results are still the same!!! |
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Mixed Nutz
Senior Member
3527 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 10:54:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SirSpear
The individual mandate is constitutional under the Taxing and Spending Clause.
Keep in mind the mandate doesn't actually make you do anything. You won't go to jail if you don't get health insurance -- there is a just a financial penalty if you have the means to get insurance and choose not to. On an unrelated note, I have no idea why you guys hate this logic -- people use medical services when they need them and then just don't pay if they don't have insurance, so don't let people take advantage of the system that way. But I digress.
Of all the taxes contemplated by the original constitution, a direct tax was clearly allowed.
So frame the question differently: Say Congress passed a direct tax of $600. Then Congress gave a $600 tax credit to anyone who had health insurance throughout the year. Both of these acts are obviously constitutional.
This isn't really a mandate. It's just an acknowledgement that EVERYBODY gets access to expensive medical care, so if you don't act responsibly and acquire insurance for yourself then you'll be taxed.
This explanation is just simply Ignorant!!! If Folks can't afford Obamacare, How in heck are they going to be able to afford the penalty??
...Politicians aren't the "Oldest Profession", but the results are still the same!!! |
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Mixed Nutz
Senior Member
3527 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 10:59:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mixed Nutz
quote:
Originally posted by Fishb8
Is the individual mandate constitutional?
I'm not asking about the health care law. All I want is an educated discussion on whether the government can make you buy something because you are a US citizen.
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them.
Well...Let's see, How about a Fishing License. Maybe A Hunting License. Then Maybe A Marriage License? And a Drivers License no doubt!! A Migratory Waterfowl Permit, A Salt Water License, A Big Game Permit, A Shrimp Tag for poles? Seining Permit, Crab Pot License, Trot Line Permits......Need I say More???
...Politicians aren't the "Oldest Profession", but the results are still the same!!!
I'm on your side Brother, but it looks like we're taking on water!!
...Politicians aren't the "Oldest Profession", but the results are still the same!!! |
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SirSpear
Senior Member
899 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 11:01:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mixed Nutz
quote:
Originally posted by SirSpear
The individual mandate is constitutional under the Taxing and Spending Clause.
Keep in mind the mandate doesn't actually make you do anything. You won't go to jail if you don't get health insurance -- there is a just a financial penalty if you have the means to get insurance and choose not to. On an unrelated note, I have no idea why you guys hate this logic -- people use medical services when they need them and then just don't pay if they don't have insurance, so don't let people take advantage of the system that way. But I digress.
Of all the taxes contemplated by the original constitution, a direct tax was clearly allowed.
So frame the question differently: Say Congress passed a direct tax of $600. Then Congress gave a $600 tax credit to anyone who had health insurance throughout the year. Both of these acts are obviously constitutional.
This isn't really a mandate. It's just an acknowledgement that EVERYBODY gets access to expensive medical care, so if you don't act responsibly and acquire insurance for yourself then you'll be taxed.
This explanation is just simply Ignorant!!! If Folks can't afford Obamacare, How in heck are they going to be able to afford the penalty??
...Politicians aren't the "Oldest Profession", but the results are still the same!!!
Well, first you are attacking a straw man. The question wasn't whether or not it was practically a good idea, just whether or not it was constitutional.
Second, even from a practical standpoint, the idea is that if you are too poor to get insurance it will be provided in some way (thus making you eligible for the credit). The only people the "mandate" is after are those who should get insurance and have the means, but irresponsibly choose not to because they know they'll still get medical care if they badly need it. The mandate is about getting people to stop leeching off the public teat if they don't have to -- I really have no idea why you guys have a problem with that (especially since the way to avoid the penalty is to get private insurance).
Your earlier examples are good ones, but I'd go even farther. The government can (and does) make you pay for an army, interstate roads, federal law enforcement, a coast guard, etc... If everyone is going to use our medical resources, everyone able should kick in. I suspect most people on this forum already do, and your premiums and medical costs are higher because of all the people who don't get insurance and then have some catastrophic accident one day.
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Reelly Old
Senior Member
1348 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 12:04:32 AM
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there is a just a financial penalty if you have the means to get insurance and choose not to.
Sooo, is it a tax under the 'tax and spend' or is it a penalty for non-compliance with Federal law? If it's the former, the IRS takes a dim view non-payment. If it's the latter, the IRS takes a dim view of non-payment.
Both of these acts are obviously constitutional.
And neither is what the dimocrats did. Today it's a tax, tomorrow it'll be a penalty, the next day it will be ...? Folks keep saying there is no penalty for NOT paying the [enter description]. Tax attorneys just love that take on they situation, the call it job security ...
The Legal Experts In 26 States Think The Mandate Is Unconstitutional.
We'll See In A Couple Of Months.
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Edited by - Reelly Old on 03/28/2012 1:48:26 PM |
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RussB
Senior Member
4202 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 01:12:22 AM
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Humans are doomed*
Russ B.
www.joinrfa.org
God is great, Beer is good, People are crazy
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constitutional or not
