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on a fishin mission
Senior Member
1422 Posts |
 Posted - 05/08/2012 : 5:50:13 PM
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$15 billion and the government still owns 63% of the shares. Looks like the rescue was a hellofa investment.
"Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so." Thomas Jefferson |
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gotchacovered
Prolific Poster
18106 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2012 : 6:21:08 PM
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So, when are you sending President Bush your thank-you letter?
P.S. LOL.
Gotcha Covered,
Lee Strickland
Strickland Marine Insurance Agency, Inc.
https://stricklandmarine.net
843-795-1000 / 800-446-1862 |
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on a fishin mission
Senior Member
1422 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2012 : 6:57:08 PM
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I though it was the right thing to do at the time and I applaud the past and present administration for their efforts in turning the company around and protecting the taxpayers investment. I wonder if the same people that criticized Bush and the bailout are willing to eat crow now?
"Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so." Thomas Jefferson |
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2012 : 9:11:34 PM
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| Hmmm... I think what you just said was that making 15 Billion from an 182 Billion dollar investment over a 4 year period was a good thing? I'm sorry, but have you actually done the math on that and taken inflation into account? That's actually a NEGATIVE return on our money... |
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gotchacovered
Prolific Poster
18106 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2012 : 10:32:15 PM
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Well, even at 2% per year, it's a better return than any other government spending. At least they didn't take the money and run with it or blow it on dog parks (this time).
Gotcha Covered,
Lee Strickland
Strickland Marine Insurance Agency, Inc.
https://stricklandmarine.net
843-795-1000 / 800-446-1862 |
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on a fishin mission
Senior Member
1422 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2012 : 11:36:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
Hmmm... I think what you just said was that making 15 Billion from an 182 Billion dollar investment over a 4 year period was a good thing? I'm sorry, but have you actually done the math on that and taken inflation into account? That's actually a NEGATIVE return on our money...
$182 billion is what they had access to, AIG actually took $86.6 billion. So, had you researched the total amount withdrawn, not their limit, you would have seen it was a hellofa investment.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/01/aig-bailouts-fed-business-washington-aig.html
"Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so." Thomas Jefferson |
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 12:02:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by on a fishin mission
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
Hmmm... I think what you just said was that making 15 Billion from an 182 Billion dollar investment over a 4 year period was a good thing? I'm sorry, but have you actually done the math on that and taken inflation into account? That's actually a NEGATIVE return on our money...
$182 billion is what they had access to, AIG actually took $86.6 billion. So, had you researched the total amount withdrawn, not their limit, you would have seen it was a hellofa investment.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/01/aig-bailouts-fed-business-washington-aig.html
"Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so." Thomas Jefferson
First of all, even at 86 billion, that is still a crappy investment. That's only around 3.8% rate of return. Secondly, that might be what AIG "owes", but that is not what tax payers put in. In the same article that you mentioned, it says that the treasury also created two entities so that AIG could dump 52 more billion of toxic assets on which were bought with taxpayer money. In other words, they used tax payer money to buy the absolute worst crap on their books and AIG has no obligation to pay this back. So, add that back to your 86 billion and you still get 138 billion. And over a 4 year period that would take the rate back down to 2.6%.
Again, if you consider that a "hell of an investment", then you have VERY LOW STANDARDS!!! I don't care what the government says, we have definitely had more than 3.8% inflation rate for the past 4 years. |
Edited by - skinneej on 05/09/2012 12:08:09 AM |
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 12:05:10 AM
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Anyway, if you still think that this is a "hell of an investment" for taxpayers, then it's pretty clear that you don't understand investing very well.
This was only a "hell of an investment" for AIG.
Heck, had they taken that same money and put it in an S&P index fund at the same time they would have made a lot more money. So there, you can take out for "opportunity cost" as well... |
Edited by - skinneej on 05/09/2012 12:09:54 AM |
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Reelly Old
Senior Member
1338 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 12:15:18 AM
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Today the Treasury sold $5 billion worth of AIG stock at $30.70 per. The stock was struck at $29.67 per, so not exactly the numbers a world class investment is made of. And we're still down about $47 billion ($39 Treasury, $8 Fed)! Quality research can be such an illusive critter.
GM was a good investment, using your criteria. Except we're still owed about $64.5 Billion, and the stock (which is what Obama got as security) is under water by about 235%. And they're still spending our money from an escrow account! 'Good Investment' is in the eye of the beholder ... 
The Light At The End Of The Obama's Tunnel Could Be A Train!
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gotchacovered
Prolific Poster
18106 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 07:00:00 AM
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The only way to see it as a good investment is to consider what probably would have happened to the country for at least 10 years if the banks and financial industry had starting folding up. It certainly doesn't feel right in concept, and 2% isn't a good investment, but from what I can tell, not being a financial expert by any means, I think the bad economy that everyone's been complaining about for the last 3.5 years would be streets of gold compared to what would have happened had we let nature run its course on that. Also, don't think that money just went to the banks. Lots of regular people ask, "Where's my bailout?", but there it was. Without that bailout a lot more people would have been either foreclosed or unable to borrow for a longer time. Who knows how many would be standing in FDIC lines--another form of bailout--and how many would have had losses that exceeded the limit? It's hard to say, but it's not a pretty thought. Joblessness? Unemployment? 10% might have looked like a low number. Everyone connected to the financial industry in some way likely would have hurt, except for the ultra-rich. People don't seem to fully understand that. I think the working and middle classes may have benefitted more than they know. So, that's the only way I can see it as anything good, and even on that angle, I have some reservations. The fact that we made any return at all on the money is a good thing, making it far better than most government spending programs and subsidies (such as Solyndra--which stangely passed into the land of the forgotten rather quickly and without Liberal outrage), but it doesn't make it a good investment. I'm not necessarily saying I would have done what the President(s) did on that, though. I would have hated to have been President at a time like that. I'd be looking at advisors like, "Well, tell me something!" I've always had mixed feelings about the bank bailout.
The GM bailout is another story. Take from the taxpayer, and give to the unions--not my cup of tea. In both cases, though, the industries would have been less likely to have problems in the first place without certain government fingers in the way. De-unionize GM, and they'll pay us back in no time, but that ain't going to happen. Even if we all know that it will eventually cause another bailout, the Democrats will probably never release their grip on union power.
Gotcha Covered,
Lee Strickland
Strickland Marine Insurance Agency, Inc.
https://stricklandmarine.net
843-795-1000 / 800-446-1862 |
Edited by - gotchacovered on 05/09/2012 07:08:44 AM |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6127 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 07:30:55 AM
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free market....If your business fails, it fails. End of story.
Lee, if you make bad investments and your company fails, should you get a bailout from taxpayers? If you company fails, it will affect me, but you DO NOT deserve a bailout.
What did any of these bailouts do for me? I would have rather them give me my portion of the money and said have a nice day.
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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gotchacovered
Prolific Poster
18106 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 07:57:18 AM
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LOL. Easy there, Jamie. I am on your side of this, but you're incorrectly reading things into what I wrote and assuming things I do not believe. I see this a lot with people. More and more, people have a hard time objectively digesting both ends of a two-sided exposition by a single writer. I think it's because people are used to seeing a writer speak solely for one side or the other on any issue. Almost everything we read these days is so zealously glued to the far end of one side of the political and ideological divide. It's the same reason that so many black leaders immediately assume "RACIST" when someone says "fried chicken" in the same sentence as "black man". So, please, don't throw me to the lions based on things I have never, ever said or thought, just because there are some buzz words or phrases that set off Conservative trip wires. The assumptions you just made are not in my words or mind. I try to see and consider both sides of a thing, and when I see some possible benefit or point in the other side, I often voice it for consideration--but at no time have I thought or said that any of the bailouts were "deserved", "right", or along the lines of a good ideology.
"free market....If your business fails, it fails. End of story."
TRUE, just like it should be.
"Lee, if you make bad investments and your company fails, should you get a bailout from taxpayers?"
NO.
"If you company fails, it will affect me, but you DO NOT deserve a bailout."
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! Why you think you need to tell me that is a mystery. I never said anything about the bank bailouts being deserved. They certainly were NOT deserved. I merely said that I have mixed feelings about the undeserved benefit we gained from them as some kind of national "investment"--which has nothing to do with it being right or wrong, deserved or undeserved. I'm just saying that, by all that I've seen, the country would probably have been in a much worse and more chaotic economic situation without them. As I clearly said, though, that doesn't mean I think they were "deserved" or that I would have done the same as the President(s).
"What did any of these bailouts do for me?"
Honestly? Probably more than you--or I--realize.
"I would have rather them give me my portion of the money and said have a nice day."
If we could really see the full extent of what would have happened without the bank bailout, you might think again.
Jamie, look at it this way. If the banks started folding, would you stand in line for your FDIC check, or would you pass on it, and stand on the principle of no bailouts? I think you'd claim your FDIC check. I would, too. Would we deserve it? No. Would it benefit us? Yes.
So, I'm not saying that any of the bailouts were good--and definitely not "deserved". I'm just saying that without the bank bailouts, the country would probably have suffered a lot more--including yourself. You would not have deserved the suffering, either, and the same government that bailed it all out set it all up to happen in the first place. Just because something has a benefit to it doesn't mean it was deserved.
Don't read things into what I'm saying, my friend.
Gotcha Covered,
Lee Strickland
Strickland Marine Insurance Agency, Inc.
https://stricklandmarine.net
843-795-1000 / 800-446-1862 |
Edited by - gotchacovered on 05/09/2012 08:10:07 AM |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6127 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 08:11:26 AM
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Lee, even though I used you and your company in my post it more for an example. You own a company that provides me a service. much like a bank is a company providing a service.
What is this FDIC check you are referring to?
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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gotchacovered
Prolific Poster
18106 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 08:12:13 AM
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In short, Jamie, by no means do I think that the bank bailouts were deserved (or that any government bailouts are ever deserved). I only said that they were a rock-versus-hard-place call that probably averted a national disaster that we can't even fathom from our relatively cushy economic positions in life.
Gotcha Covered,
Lee Strickland
Strickland Marine Insurance Agency, Inc.
https://stricklandmarine.net
843-795-1000 / 800-446-1862 |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6127 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 08:14:13 AM
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BTW: It's JAMEY :)
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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gotchacovered
Prolific Poster
18106 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 08:18:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fishb8
Lee, even though I used you and your company in my post it more for an example. You own a company that provides me a service. much like a bank is a company providing a service.
What is this FDIC check you are referring to?
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them.
I know that, man, and I have known it for a long time. Aside from that, we're also friends in my book, and I've always liked you--and your dad--ever since I met you as a kid. So, there's never any hard feelings here, my man. Please don't ever misunderstand me on those terms.
I am just letting you know that I'm not saying that any bailouts were "deserved". That is faaaaaaaaar from my position. I am only saying that we would have been in a world of doo doo if the banks had folded.
The FDIC check that I'm talking about is the Federal Depository Insurance that you would have been paid if your bank couldn't give you the money in your bank account. There was no FDIC in the Great Depression, and I still remember my grandfather telling me how people lost the money in their accounts as banks folded.
Gotcha Covered,
Lee Strickland
Strickland Marine Insurance Agency, Inc.
https://stricklandmarine.net
843-795-1000 / 800-446-1862 |
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gotchacovered
Prolific Poster
18106 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 08:22:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fishb8
BTW: It's JAMEY :)
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them.
Sorry, Jamey. That's a unique spelling.
Anyway, I just wanted you to know what I was saying. People easily get the wrong idea in these threads. I don't believe in bailouts or believe they are deserved. The bank bailout probably did avert some much harder economic times than the nation realizes, though, and if the nation is complaining about the present economy, they would have been passing out in the streets had the government not bailed out the banks--as undeserved as that was. That's all I'm saying.
Gotcha Covered,
Lee Strickland
Strickland Marine Insurance Agency, Inc.
https://stricklandmarine.net
843-795-1000 / 800-446-1862 |
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on a fishin mission
Senior Member
1422 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 08:54:38 AM
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Alot of people fail to realize how important of a company AIG is. It is the largest insurance underwriter in the world and if you have insurance or a retirement plan, AIG is likely involved. Had it folded millions of people and companies would have lost insurance policies and retirement plans. Unlike the FDIC, you likely would have gotten nothing for your insurance policies or mutual funds. On top of that 57000 people would have lost their jobs. Hindsight is 20/20 and this was definetly the right thing to do. I personally thought AIG would never be able to pay back all the money it received, but it is able to, with a profit. When you add the immense downside of loosing a company like AIG, I stand by my assertion that it was a hellofa investment.
"Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so." Thomas Jefferson |
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 09:28:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by on a fishin mission
Alot of people fail to realize how important of a company AIG is. It is the largest insurance underwriter in the world and if you have insurance or a retirement plan, AIG is likely involved. Had it folded millions of people and companies would have lost insurance policies and retirement plans. Unlike the FDIC, you likely would have gotten nothing for your insurance policies or mutual funds. On top of that 57000 people would have lost their jobs. Hindsight is 20/20 and this was definetly the right thing to do. I personally thought AIG would never be able to pay back all the money it received, but it is able to, with a profit. When you add the immense downside of loosing a company like AIG, I stand by my assertion that it was a hellofa investment.
"Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so." Thomas Jefferson
If your insurance company folded right now, what would you do? I would probably shop for a new policy, maybe with a company who doesn't make such bad decisions.
I don't think that letting AIG failed would have crushed the economy. Lehman Brothers went belly up and it didn't crush us. I think that is grand speculation on your part. Not only that, but were they even forced to file for bankruptcy? Now, they can be even more aggressive in their investment knowing that they are "too big to fail". Also, why do we want an economy that relies on entities that are "too big to fail"?
What about those of us who had stock in AIG? Do we get bailed out too? |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6127 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 09:32:37 AM
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I agree with skinneej on this.
Explain this to me. AIG make bad decision/investment/whatever. AIG is about to go belly up. Gov gives AIG boatloads of money. AIG makes tons of money. HOW? Did they re-org? change the business model?
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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skinneej
Prolific Poster
11907 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 09:36:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gotchacovered
Anyway, I just wanted you to know what I was saying. People easily get the wrong idea in these threads. I don't believe in bailouts or believe they are deserved. The bank bailout probably did avert some much harder economic times than the nation realizes, though, and if the nation is complaining about the present economy, they would have been passing out in the streets had the government not bailed out the banks--as undeserved as that was. That's all I'm saying.
I agree on the banks. That would have been the only bailout that I would have supported and it may have been more of a line of credit than just dumping money in. Unfortunately, it seems that the banks are still "too big to fail". I think more work should have been done to put fairness back into balance for the smaller banks. |
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on a fishin mission
Senior Member
1422 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 09:47:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by on a fishin mission
Alot of people fail to realize how important of a company AIG is. It is the largest insurance underwriter in the world and if you have insurance or a retirement plan, AIG is likely involved. Had it folded millions of people and companies would have lost insurance policies and retirement plans. Unlike the FDIC, you likely would have gotten nothing for your insurance policies or mutual funds. On top of that 57000 people would have lost their jobs. Hindsight is 20/20 and this was definetly the right thing to do. I personally thought AIG would never be able to pay back all the money it received, but it is able to, with a profit. When you add the immense downside of loosing a company like AIG, I stand by my assertion that it was a hellofa investment.
"Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so." Thomas Jefferson
If your insurance company folded right now, what would you do? I would probably shop for a new policy, maybe with a company who doesn't make such bad decisions.
I don't think that letting AIG failed would have crushed the economy. Lehman Brothers went belly up and it didn't crush us. I think that is grand speculation on your part. Not only that, but were they even forced to file for bankruptcy? Now, they can be even more aggressive in their investment knowing that they are "too big to fail". Also, why do we want an economy that relies on entities that are "too big to fail"?
What about those of us who had stock in AIG? Do we get bailed out too?
I assume you are talking about a health insurance plan and not a HSA. If you had a HSA, you would likely have lost everything. If you are talking about a retirement account, you would have lost everything. If you are talking about life insurance, you likely would have lost erverything. Try telling a 60 year old who has had a life insurance policy for 30 years that he need to go get a new one, most could not afford to buy a "new" policy at 60, or 50 for that matter. A simple monthly premium health insuranmce plan is easy to replace, HSA, retirement funds and life insurance policies are not as easy.
"Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so." Thomas Jefferson |
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on a fishin mission
Senior Member
1422 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 09:51:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fishb8
I agree with skinneej on this.
Explain this to me. AIG make bad decision/investment/whatever. AIG is about to go belly up. Gov gives AIG boatloads of money. AIG makes tons of money. HOW? Did they re-org? change the business model?
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them.
Certainly more complicated than this guy has the wits to figure out, but very glad the past and present administration put the right people in that did have the knowledge.
http://www.aigcorporate.com/restructuring/faqs.html
"Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so." Thomas Jefferson |
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Fishb8
Senior Member
6127 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 10:14:26 AM
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I hope by "this guy" you don't mean me. Because I'm as shape as a bowling ball on these things :)
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them. |
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hhi angler
Senior Member
2137 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 10:15:34 AM
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| Take a look at the latest AIG investment in the CEO of Chesapeake not a bad deal with the tax payers backing your play. |
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on a fishin mission
Senior Member
1422 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2012 : 10:44:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fishb8
I hope by "this guy" you don't mean me. Because I'm as shape as a bowling ball on these things :)
Fishb8 (Fish Bait)
23 Sea Hunt "My Last Boat V"
If you can't stand behind our soldiers, try standing in front of them.
TAlking about me 
"Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so." Thomas Jefferson |
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AIG bailout produces large profits
