never buying another Johnson

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https://www.charlestonfishing.com/forums/Topic/Posts/182912?pagenum=1
12/13/19 20:52

Topic


PalmerScott
never buying another Johnson
10/14/19 3:07


Stupid motor only lasted 25 yrs. /sarc

Is piston supposed to look like this?

Appears to have eaten a ring. Inside of head looks like tip of piston.

Old girl ran like a top for a long time. Never failed to get me home. Not one time.

Guess it's time to start researching repower options.


---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25

 

Replies ...


boatpoor
10/15/19 0:39


Beats having a black motor! Love my E tec, 8 years now not a birp!
mdaddy
10/15/19 17:34


Little hone job / used piston / set of rings and you in business...(sarc)

Find a engine made today that runs for 25 years without costing you an arm and a leg.


The ENTER-NET Fisherman
PalmerScott
10/16/19 15:34


Little hone job / used piston / set of rings and you in business...(sarc)

Find a engine made today that runs for 25 years without costing you an arm and a leg.


The ENTER-NET FishermanOriginally posted by mdaddy


You joke. But, I enjoy playing with these things. HenryO hull will definitely get new power. Love that hull.

The old Johnson 2moker may get played with just for fun. Never tried to do a piston and rings.

Questions about a replacement piston. I see Sierra piston kits for about $100 (piston, rings, wrist pin, and clips). Maybe could find a used donor. Is it possible to remove carbs and reed valve assembly and get at the front of the connecting rod bearing? If so, I may try a hone and new piston. Cylinder is scored some. But , I've broken down motors that looked nearly as bad and went back together and ran a long time. Held 50 psi like she was, if a little work got her 90 or better..... Would never sell without disclosing full history. Shoot, history is literally on the internet

And, I have a 14' Bentz with the same transom bolt pattern. And, I've seen several 14s carrying old Merc and OMC 90s. Could be fun.


Hey, hold my beer.... Watch this.....bigsmile

Will have to see if I can break any time free to play.


---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25
mdaddy
10/17/19 3:09


Little hone job / used piston / set of rings and you in business...(sarc)

Find a engine made today that runs for 25 years without costing you an arm and a leg.


The ENTER-NET FishermanOriginally posted by mdaddy


You joke. But, I enjoy playing with these things. HenryO hull will definitely get new power. Love that hull.

The old Johnson 2moker may get played with just for fun. Never tried to do a piston and rings.

Questions about a replacement piston. I see Sierra piston kits for about $100 (piston, rings, wrist pin, and clips). Maybe could find a used donor. Is it possible to remove carbs and reed valve assembly and get at the front of the connecting rod bearing? If so, I may try a hone and new piston. Cylinder is scored some. But , I've broken down motors that looked nearly as bad and went back together and ran a long time. Held 50 psi like she was, if a little work got her 90 or better..... Would never sell without disclosing full history. Shoot, history is literally on the internet

And, I have a 14' Bentz with the same transom bolt pattern. And, I've seen several 14s carrying old Merc and OMC 90s. Could be fun.


Hey, hold my beer.... Watch this.....bigsmile

Will have to see if I can break any time free to play.


---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25Originally posted by PalmerScott


I enjoy your posts.

I believe you can separate the crankcase from the block( if you are a wrench freak), but , it could/would be a waste of time. I've never done it...seen it done ...and there's this:
https://forums.iboats.com/forum/engine-repair-and-maintenance/mercury-mariner-outboards/341319-replacing-johnson-outboard-piston


The problem is the more 25 year old bolts you remove...the more chance of breaking them. Depends on what you want when you get done and what the rest of the motor is like. I had an 88...that was a running junk pile...and I sold it... ran forever. I got into boating by buying other peoples junked motors and trying to fix them.

2 strokes may not be efficient...but...they very seldom quit on you. Not much that can go wrong...KISS principle. Personally, I get all the goody out of something before it goes to scrap.

I'll be watching for your progress. Post some pics and let us know what you do.




The ENTER-NET Fisherman
contender1
10/17/19 20:47


“Beats having a black motor”. “Got 8-years on my etec”. Eight whole years? I got underwear older than that! 23-years on my 30 hp tiller Merc with no issues. Poor mouthing abounds but my Seasoned personal experience tells me otherwise.
boatpoor
10/19/19 23:39


If I could post pictures I would post one of the 7 v6 Mercs that have holes in the block hanging on stands behind my barn. Altho I have a running 2.4 200 84 model that still runs great
40inchreds
10/20/19 15:20


Go to any old country area or mountain area where money is an issue every motor around is a old smoker. I had a Johnson 70 that was bored to a 90 by a airplane mechanic and his buddy who was a machinest. Two strokes are great.
PalmerScott
10/20/19 20:42


Well.... She's done.
Carbs came off easily as they got cleaned every few years. Reed assembly came off easily = surprise! Reeds looked great. Outer crankcase bolts came easily = more surprised. 4 of the 6 Allen head crankcase bolts came out clean = (beginning to hope I have something to play with)...... Then, the two lower Allen head bolts seized hard. Could pull the power head and put some heat on them.... But, that's more than I'm willing to put in to her. Parting her out. Everything worked except that the new cylinder. Anyone need parts for a mid 90s OMC/Bombardier?


---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25
demasb
10/21/19 0:00


Sorry to hear the motor has reached the end of it’s useful life for you. What horsepower is it?
PalmerScott
10/21/19 0:49


1995 Johnson 88spl. No VRO. Does have trim/tilt. The 88 special is literally a 90 with slightly lower amperage output (6 amps instead of 9, I think).


---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25
TheMechanic
10/21/19 12:13


i sure wish that was a 1995 ocean runner. i'd buy the whole setup. im looking for a power pack


_____________________________________________________
Proline 201WA
Aloha 24ft pontoon (LooneyToon)
Old Town stern with 7.5 johnson
PalmerScott
10/30/19 14:26


Here's a mystery.

That motor on that hull has always done 30-31 mph WOT. I always thought a 90hp should push her better than that but, she ran smoothly, idled nicely, and generally behaved herself if she had clean carbs. Slightly disappointing fuel economy but she's a 25yr old 2-smoker.

Here's the mystery. The last trip, after fishing a spot, 'had a little difficulty getting her to start. She'd spin and fire, stumble, and die. She did it maybe 10 times. Then, got enough start-up lever in her and she fired up and ran. Figuring low speed jets were dirty, I ran her WOT back to the trailer. 31mph.

Second part, on the hose in the driveway, I did a little tidying up of the timing linkage and she went back to purring at idle. I figured since she was warmed up, I do a quick compression test and that was my first evidence of a bad cylinder.

Note that the intake side of the piston face has more carbon build up and there is carbon in and on the dents left by the piece of ring bouncing around in the cylinder. Same is true on the under side of the head.

Question: have I been running on a very weak cylinder for a long time? Curiosity is getting the better of me. I think I'm going to pull the power head and see if I can't get those last two crank case bolts to free up. If I can, will get a piston kit and put her back together. I have no expectation that she'll hold together for very long. But, I'm getting ready to have to buy a new motor. Have been thinking a 115 or larger. But, if a 90 4 stroke will push her near 40mph, I'll save some transom weight and go back with another 90? Decisions... decisions.....





---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25
mdaddy
10/30/19 17:18


Here's a mystery.

That motor on that hull has always done 30-31 mph WOT. I always thought a 90hp should push her better than that but, she ran smoothly, idled nicely, and generally behaved herself if she had clean carbs. Slightly disappointing fuel economy but she's a 25yr old 2-smoker.

Here's the mystery. The last trip, after fishing a spot, 'had a little difficulty getting her to start. She'd spin and fire, stumble, and die. She did it maybe 10 times. Then, got enough start-up lever in her and she fired up and ran. Figuring low speed jets were dirty, I ran her WOT back to the trailer. 31mph.

Second part, on the hose in the driveway, I did a little tidying up of the timing linkage and she went back to purring at idle. I figured since she was warmed up, I do a quick compression test and that was my first evidence of a bad cylinder.

Note that the intake side of the piston face has more carbon build up and there is carbon in and on the dents left by the piece of ring bouncing around in the cylinder. Same is true on the under side of the head.

Question: have I been running on a very weak cylinder for a long time? Curiosity is getting the better of me. I think I'm going to pull the power head and see if I can't get those last two crank case bolts to free up. If I can, will get a piston kit and put her back together. I have no expectation that she'll hold together for very long. But, I'm getting ready to have to buy a new motor. Have been thinking a 115 or larger. But, if a 90 4 stroke will push her near 40mph, I'll save some transom weight and go back with another 90? Decisions... decisions.....





---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25Originally posted by PalmerScott




If the block and crank are good...
http://smellofdeath.com/lloydy/piston_diag_guide.htm



The ENTER-NET Fisherman
mdaddy
10/31/19 4:10


I got enough stool to work on around here, but, I gots to know why that piston ate the ring.

The cylinder got hot due to the ring failure or some other cause?

If you get apart, I'd like to know if the locating pin failed...or just old rings.

Show me a four stroke that will run with damage like that.




The ENTER-NET Fisherman
PalmerScott
11/22/19 15:52


Well, here's the problem child. I am absolutely amazed this motor was running reasonably well/smoothly with this in one of the holes. I guess 50 psi compression is more than zero. But, hard to believe.

Obviously, spit out the entire top ring and took a few chunks of the piston with it. Can not believe the entire ring made in into the combustion chamber and got spit out. Didn't get back down into the crank case = would think that would have destroyed everything quickly.

I broke three bolts getting her apart. If I can either get those out or helli-coil them I'll order a piston kit, hone the cylinder a little, and throw all this back together. See if she lasts longer than 5 minutes.






---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25


---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25


---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25
boatpoor
11/22/19 22:41


that's unreal, thanks for the pictures! Good luck on the rebuild hope it runs another 24 years!
mdaddy
11/23/19 18:04


You mention that you thought the boat/motor was slow but OK:

"That motor on that hull has always done 30-31 mph WOT. I always thought a 90hp should push her better than that but, she ran smoothly, idled nicely, and generally behaved herself if she had clean carbs.

I wonder if it was propped right? Just a thought.

https://forums.iboats.com/forum/engine-repair-and-maintenance/johnson-evinrude-outboards/101539-96-johnson-115-piston-head-damage-pics

The picture of the piston that you have appears that the ring locating pin broke loose. The lugging may explain the heat build up. Just a thought. Good luck with the rebuild. Beeswax and heat are our friends.


The ENTER-NET Fisherman
PalmerScott
11/25/19 19:04


mdaddy,

I've forgotten the numbers, but, I ran a 15 3/4" x 17" prop on her for a long time and she was right below the bottom of the prescribed range for WOT RPMs. About a year ago, I dropped to a 16" pitch prop and it made almost no difference. RPMs went up as expected, but, speed stayed just about the same. Fuel burn stayed about the same. So, I think that means that even if she was a little below the prescribed WOT range, she was doing OK with the 17" pitch.

Regarding the ring locator pin, it is still there and in pretty good shape. It is just around the side of the piston in that pic where you cannot see it. The amount of carbon built up in that top ring lane makes me think this old girl spit that ring out a long time ago. Much of that lane is almost completely full. And, it is hard as a rock. Its been in there baking in place for a while.

Had three bolts that I'd twisted the heads of off and could not get out of the block. After heating gently and shooting with PB Blaster (don't know if the stuff works or not - but, gave it a try) and leaving it for two days. Then, came back, more heat, vise grips as tight as I could get them and got two of the studs out. The third would not budge and I was torquing on it so hard I was a little afraid of ripping a chunk of aluminum out. So, cut it off about 1/8" tall. Filed it flat. Put a sharp felt tip dot in what I thought was the center. Center punched the dot several times to give good dimple and started drilling with a very small drill bit. Stepped up right through the bit set until I started to see the hint of threads in the wall of the hole. Ran a tap through the hole and it cleaned out nicely. I've tried to do that trick dozens of times over the years. This is the first time I did not end up having to over drill and heli-coil or re-tap it. Very Very lucky.

So, ordering a piston kit and a variety of gaskets. When the parts arrive, I'll put her back together.

Once I get the piston in, I'll hook a drill motor up to the top of the fly wheel and spin her slowly, feeding her 2-cycle oil in the cylinders for a few minutes to make sure nothing catches an edge with the new rings. Then, maybe speed up and spin it with the drill for 10 minutes or so.... feeding oil the entire time. If everything is smooth and stays smooth, put her back together. I think if she runs 2 minutes, she may run a long time. She may not run 2 minutes. We'll see :-)

Should start a pool on how long she runs.
I'll buy the winner a beer. (Or, maybe the winner should buy me a beer. ;-) )



---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25
40inchreds
11/25/19 21:45


If you got skills a rebuild should last as long as the original or longer. 2 smokes are built to be rebuilt. I'm sure some other things will take a dive since they are 25 years old
mdaddy
11/26/19 3:59


There's an art to working on junk. I like your dedication and tenacity. They be in short supply in most cases.

Now, what is this???:



Bolts break...no mater what. Feels good when you drill one out right. I don't know which works better about loosening agents. I like watching the wax get sucked in. PB blaster seems to work...wax isn't as flammable...so there's that.

The picture looks like a locating pin stuck to the piston... Or cracked up through. Either way, find a good machine shop to check the block and crank since it's apart.(Nice to have other eyes depending on price and you having micrometers)

Considering your drive to fix something, I'm in the pool !!!!!!... that with that motor done right... might outrun you.

Enjoy your work.




The ENTER-NET Fisherman
PalmerScott
11/27/19 15:38


There's an art to working on junk. I like your dedication and tenacity. They be in short supply in most cases.

Now, what is this???:




Not sure what the round shape is. The ring locator pin is intact. Only guess, is a purely random shape produced while the ring was being spit out. It appears to be made of the same material as the rest of the piston body. Here's a pic of the intact ring locator pin.




The picture looks like a locating pin stuck to the piston... Or cracked up through. Either way, find a good machine shop to check the block and crank since it's apart.(Nice to have other eyes depending on price and you having micrometers)




The ENTER-NET FishermanOriginally posted by mdaddy


I'm livin on the edge. No micrometers here. Everything else on this old girl is 25 years old and she just doesn't warrant any significant investment. I'm gonna spend about $180 on parts and throw her back together. See what happens.

I'm going to be optimistic as say she runs another couple of years. I'll try to remember to video her first start. Could be comical.


---------------------------



---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25
mdaddy
12/05/19 17:40


Good for you. That motor laughs at micrometers.

Much simpler motor that did what it was posed to do...start and run...and doesn't need 20 sensors to do it.


The ENTER-NET Fisherman
PalmerScott
12/05/19 21:31


Don't know when I'll get to it... may be this weekend. But, ...... parts!




---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25
PalmerScott
12/08/19 3:14


Progress.



Piston to con rod small end done. Needle bearings are a pita. You have to nest the bearings in the end of the con rod. Then, slide wrist pin into piston and through bearings with out having them collapse....which they do. Manual says buy this tool which is just a little plug the width of con rod that sits inside bearings until the wrist pin pushes through. Had a tapered candle. Mic'd the wrist pin and cut a 1/2" length of candle. Perfect. Easy on aluminum piston and held bearings in place.

Install rings. Slather with 2 cycle oil.
Slide into cylinder and mate to crank.

Lightly tightened con rod end cap and spun crank several revolutions. Everything was smooth.

In the am, torque con rod end cap. Close case. Reinstall all the 12million things I removed.


---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25
chris V
12/10/19 14:18


people rarely understand the NEED to do a carbon treatment on their motor.
Based on the pictures, if I were betting, I would bet that you got carbon build up behind the rings, ring sticks out just bit farther than it should, and catches the edge of the port on the way down. The broken piece of ring ends up banging around on top of the piston until it gets spit out the exhaust port.
Seen it happen over and over again.
Morale of the story...
the inside needs to be clean as well as the outside

PS
if you ever do another build like this, you can order caged needle bearings for most motors, and they are only a few dollars more than loose bearings, and vaseline does a really good job of holding the loose bearing in place while doing your assembly.


www.teamcharlestonmarine.com
IF I RESPOND IN ALL CAPS, ITS NOT ON PURPOSE, AND I AM NOT YELLING
mdaddy
12/10/19 23:14


Get it man. Those needle bearings will make you swear.

I rebuilt a Merc 125 that had those as well as 6 different ring compressors. My girlfriend at the time was trying to help me put the assembled crank back in the block while taking off each ring compressor...and told me where I could put the whole motor. She never did get a boat ride.

" Mic'd the wrist pin and cut a 1/2" length of candle. Perfect." The only thing mic'd was a candle...classic. My long lost twin.
Won't be long now.


The ENTER-NET Fisherman


The ENTER-NET Fisherman
PalmerScott
12/11/19 15:06


Quick clarification on two points.

First, I hoped that it might be possible to split the crankcase with out removing the power head from the exhaust adapter and it was suggested that it might be possible. It may be possible on other motors, but, on a 1995 88spl (or 90, or 112, or 115), there are two bolts going up through the bottom crank case head assembly (bottom end bearing cover) through the cover and into a ring that goes around the crank shaft. You cannot open the crankcase without removing those two bolts. No way to get to those to bolts without removing the block from the exhaust adapter.


Second, I cannot lie. I did not 'mic' the wrist pin. I used a vernier caliper which I like because it makes me look like a Wizard when people see me use it. Invariably, "how do you read that"? (Knew how to use a slide rule for about a month, then never picked one up again. Those guys are Wizards.)



---------------------------
17' Henry O Hornet w/ Johnson 88 spl
26' Palmer Scott project hull
14' Bentz-Craft w/ Yamaha 25
Fred67
12/11/19 18:28


Slide rule?! They quit making those in the late 70’s. smile. Talk about old school. I wonder how many are out there that could still read one?
chris V
12/11/19 21:28


slide rule...
okay guys im 52 and my dad used one when i was kid
and he is 87 now
I am sure he still has one somewhere.
I will stick with my cell phone


www.teamcharlestonmarine.com
IF I RESPOND IN ALL CAPS, ITS NOT ON PURPOSE, AND I AM NOT YELLING


www.teamcharlestonmarine.com
IF I RESPOND IN ALL CAPS, ITS NOT ON PURPOSE, AND I AM NOT YELLING
gail wins
12/11/19 22:14


got one i used in tech school and work calculating electrical loads and the such ;( it still works but i don't anymore )


George McDonald
US Navy Seabees,Retired,
MAD, Charleston Chapter
[http://www.militaryappreciationday.org


When you see "Old Glory" waving in the breeze, know that it is the dying breaths of our fallen hero's that makes it wave.
author unknown
Off the chain
12/11/19 22:49


Slide rule?
Is that like a part for a sundial or something?


I am fragile.
Not like a flower.
But like a bomb.
gail wins
12/12/19 1:58


Yeppers or sumthin !!!bigsmilebigsmilethumbsUp


George McDonald
US Navy Seabees,Retired,
MAD, Charleston Chapter
[http://www.militaryappreciationday.org


When you see "Old Glory" waving in the breeze, know that it is the dying breaths of our fallen hero's that makes it wave.
author unknown
boatpoor
12/12/19 3:25


I've still got one of mine in my desk i used before I got a calculater in 1965. It would add, subtract, multiply, and divide and cost only $1,200. It was 12" square and weighed 2 lbs
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